Rick Riley, The Questions

Over the next week or so, I will get the entire Rick Riley interview up on the blog. The first part, called Rick Riley, High School Running, Then and Now,  will be available tomorrow morning.

The questions I sent to Rick jumped started our conversation and that's the way I'll present it - a conversation between the two of us, and an invitation for you to eavesdrop. If you want to add your own points, you can do that by email or in the comments section.

Below are the questions.

.1       Compared to kids today, you started running comparatively late – 9th grade, I think. Did you play other sports as a youth or was running your first foray into athletics?

2.       You were a high school phenom in the 60’s, chasing Gerry Lindgren, another Spokane great, when the area was producing some of the finest distance runners in the country. How is the region different now than then?

3.       You were running at the end of the amateur era when athletes who needed to make a living on their running had to take money under the table to maintain their amateur status or work to survive. We now live in an era of professional runners but a huge number of them still can’t make a living at the sport and still set training around jobs. First, what it like in that late 60’s/early 70’s period for you as an athlete?

4.       And second, what kinds of changes would you like to see to allow more athletes treat running – in all the events, not just the sexy ones like the marathon – as a true profession?

5.       You returned to coaching five or six years ago after more than twenty years away. The world changed a lot in that time. How has that affected the way that you coach?

6.       You ran against – and beat! – Steve Prefontaine. Since his death, no one has stepped onto the American running scene and generated as much enthusiasm as Pre. What was it about Pre that made him special to the fans, caused them to chant his name? Was it a product of the time, the first great American Running Boom?

7.       Do you see anyone on the horizon that can pick up the mantle from Pre?

8.       Every runner has those special moments that become favorite memories, whether from a race, a training run, or an interaction with another runner. Do you have one that you feel comfortable sharing? (Rick, this one is pretty personal – if you don’t want to answer it, I’ll drop it from the article.)

9.       If you had a magic wand and could change a few rules for xc and track, how would you rearrange things?

10.   Lastly, you’re at an age where people begin to consider their legacy. I’ve watched as you have shared your knowledge with athletes generations removed from your years as a competitor. From your perspective as someone who reached the pinnacles of running, what one thing above all else would you like to impart to the young athletes?

From a Town Like Alice comes a Runner Like Emma

Alice Springs, Australia seems an unlikely place to produce a representative to the Aussie World Mountain Running Championship squad, but Emma Kraft earned her way onto the team again this year, despite the lack of a major mountain nearby.

The first female Australian finisher at last year’s World Mountain Running Championship, Emma doesn’t apparently believe in limits.

“As you know running can take you to the most amazing places in the world!! There are no limits and it's up to your imagination of where you want to go and race and/or train!!!!” Emma wrote in a blog post for The Runners Tribe. Emma Kraft proceeded to prove that this year, making a trip to Colorado to meet up with other mountain runners such as Joseph Gray, some fellow Australians training in the region, and test her legs against Pike Peak.

First though, she stopped by the Mt. Sac Relays to record a PR in the 10,000m on the track there. Obviously thrilled with a 27 second improvement in her time, the race also qualified her for the Zatopek  10,000m, the Australian Nationals race in December.

The track was easier than Pikes Peak. As Emma described it, “I ended up climbing/running/walking/crawling up Pikes Peak Ascent (Manitou Springs) which is about a 40% gradient, so basically I was moving for 1.4km but gained about 610m up which took me about 35mins, and there were over 3000 steps!”

I was in the area about the same time. My friend Adric talked about climbing that trail but we were heading to Pagosa Springs in a couple of days for a marathon, so we skipped it. Given that Emma is a much better runner than I am and how the trail treated her, probably a wise decision on my part.

She also had a chance to tour Manitou Springs, a neat little village that is both eclectic and picturesque. "I had a lovely little time in all the little cool shops! Was def one of my favourite places!" Emma also visited the Garden of the Gods to do some rock-hopping.

Unlike some athletes that specialize in a single type of event, she has been actively trying new races. In July, she added her first marathon to her list of accomplishments, racing at the Gold Coast Marathon.

Emma was less than 100 percent for the 2014 Mountain Running race on Mt. Tennent in Canberra, so had to pull out. A disappointing time to take ill but she applied for the World team on the strength of her win in February at the La Sportiva Vertical K race. I’m sure that the strong race at Mt. Sac helped as it provided additional evidence of her rapid improvement.

This year, she heads to Cassette Di Massa, Italy, along with teammates Kate Seibold, Harriet Smith, Gemma Kenessy. Emma is the only representative of the Northern Territory on the men’s or women’s team.

Like most runners, the Australians have to self-fund their trip. Sponsors have stepped forward to help Emma. One was her running club which is how I found out about Emma and began learning her story.

I posted a while ago about making contact with someone, a man named Jim, who had known my father when we lived in Australia in the 70’s. In a roundabout way, Jim introduced me to the Alice Springs Running and Walking Club. I found their site and asked to get on their mailing list – which lead to a query from the current president, John Bermingham, the gist of which was ’you’re not from around here, are you? A longish explanation on how I found them followed as we conversed by email and I asked to be on the newsletter list for the club.

Several weeks ago, the ASRWC put out a note that the entry fees for the upcoming half-marathon would be donated to Emma to help defray the expense of the trip. I thought it a neat idea and emailed him to offer to enter – but that I’d be unlikely to show up to race, given only a few days to trek 13,500km. We got all the details straightened out except one – I forgot to check the actual fee and it seems I have an entry to the ABC Half-marathon good for the next decade or so.

Motivation to train, right? Easier in some respects for me than Emma . . .

Photography by Scotte Woods

Unlike paid professionals, amateurs have to balance life responsibilities with training. Squeezing in all the activities makes for a very busy life.  A full-time employee of the Central Australian Aboriginal Congress, Level 2 Intermediate Club Coach, and a Level 1 Sports Trainer, Emma’s days are full – before she heads out to train. Still, she finds time to volunteer, not just with the running club, but in outreach events for indigenous people and health programs.

After exchanging emails, I asked Emma if I could write a bit on her story and she graciously agreed. I still had a few questions for her, so sent them along and asked her for her replies. That conversation is below.

Paul: You’ve tackled nearly all types of running, from trails, to mountains, the track, and roads. Do you have a favorite? And, if you could be the greatest in one event, what would it be?

Emma: That is a very tricky question! I love the freedom and the vastness of the Mountains and the trails, but I think after watching the Aussies in the Commonwealth Games Marathon and completing my debut Marathon at the Gold Coast, I would perhaps pick the Marathon! But then take me back to Poland 2013 and I would choose Mountain Running!

Paul: You are an Alice native but went to Melbourne, the big city, for university, and then came back to the Northern Territory. Do you have any desire to move back to a large city?

Emma: I would never say never, but definitely not at the moment. I sometimes question myself about moving to a bigger city and would this give me better chance of ‘making it’ as a runner. There would definitely be some massive benefits such as training with a group and racing a lot more but there are definitely some major disadvantages. In Alice, everything is only a 5 minute drive away, there are no trams, trains or peak hour traffic. I can fit a lot in to my day, especially training (twice a day), Pilates, my day job and perhaps a Physio or massage appointment in my Lunch break.  Training out here is beautiful and the weather is perfect pretty much 10months out of the year. (In Summer it gets to about 40 degrees Celsius or 104 degrees Fahrenheit, which is just too hot to enjoy running!).  Also the support from Local Business in Alice Springs has been overwhelming! I am very fortunate to be the only fish in a small pond here in Alice Springs and the Northern Territory, but hopefully this is also inspiring others to pursue their Dreams!

Paul: The Gold Coast Marathon was your first at that distance. Are you interested in pursuing that event?  The qualifying standard for the Commonwealth Games isn’t that far away . . .

Photography by Scotte Woods

Emma: Yes definitely! Especially after watching the Aussies in the Commonwealth Games Marathon bring home a Gold in the Men’s (Michael Shelley) and a Bronze in the Women’s (Jessica Trengove)! I have a lot of respect for Marathons and Marathoners and really want to give it another crack. The Australian women’s Qualifier is around 2:38 and I ran 3:04 on debut, so only another 26mins I need to shave off, lol. I believe ‘anything is possible’ and I have definitely learnt a lot from my race (marathon), the lead up and my training. I can’t wait to give the Marathon another crack now that I’m wiser and older. This would definitely be a dream come true and, over the next 4 years, I really want to pursue this!

Paul: You’ve been to Poland to race. You’ve run and raced in the States. You’re headed to Italy next. Where is Emma’s dream destination, not just for running?

Emma: Last year on my Poland trip, I also went to Switzerland and fell in love with the place and, of course, the Mountains. A 30 minute jog turned into 2 hours of exploring, I definitely want to go back there. I also really want to go to Africa, not sure where particularly, but definitely South Africa and Kenya. I think the culture and the running over there would be amazing.

So that’s a bit of story on Emma Kraft. On September 14th, she’ll be racing the best mountain runners from around the globe, representing Alice Springs and Australia. If you want to follow her progress on Facebook, you can like her Athlete page.

To Emma, my great thanks for working with me on this writing project – it’s been a joy.

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Paul Duffau is a writer of running fiction with two books currently published and a third in the early stages of being written. He also journals the local high school runners and local races. His ebooks Finishing Kick and Trail of Second Chances are available at Amazon. Paul has discounted the ebooks for the Australian audience.

He's scratching his head to figure out how to get print copies done up for Australia. Anyone with advice should feel free to contact him - just use the contact page to send him an email. He answers all his emails personally.

Tim Tays, the Interview

Tim Tays sat down and wrote an unflinching look at his running life, Wannabe Distance God: The Thirst, Angst, and Passion of Running in the Chase Pack. Covering his evolution as a school boy phenom, to his years as a Kansas Jayhawk, and beyond, to the injury that derailed his hopes of cracking that last upper elite, Wannabe Distance God touches poignantly on the desire, disappointment, and acceptance of young man's struggle to match his own expectations.

After reading his book, I wanted to sit down and talk with Tim. I reached out to Tim and he graciously agreed to be interviewed. Distance presented a problem, the internet provides the solution, and we did the interview by email. (I love technology when it works.)

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Paul -  I love the title of your book, “Wannabe Distance God.” I know that some great runners - Bill Rodgers, for example – have read your book and been favorable. How are the more everyday runners reacting? Are you getting some feedback from them and what kind? A lot of us are wannabes, too. . .

Tim Tays - I got feedback from everyday runners as well as elite runners. Because this was my first published book (and my first attempt at marketing a book), I learned that distance runners are not a homogeneous population. While writing WDG I thought anyone who ran would want to read about the running experience. But I discovered that weight-cutting joggers are very different from mileage-piling distance runners, who are very different from time-dropping competitive distance runners, who are very different from T&F News-reading distance running fanatics. I guess I thought everyone who ran was a distance running fanatic like me.

So to directly answer your question, it wasn't name dropping elite runners from the Golden Era that resonates the most with everyday runners. It wasn't even how fast I was or was not. It was about my personal psychodynamics that led me to hardcore distance running the everyday runner enjoyed the most. They also enjoyed our shared experiences regardless of the level we eventually attained or how badly we wanted it. It was about the shared struggle, the shared feelings. I also wanted to give the chase-pack runner a voice, because I certainly couldn't write from the perspective of an elite runner.

I researched the market, and took stock of what I wanted to write about, and decided that the voice of a chase-pack runner was missing. Everyday runners are somewhat aghast at the commitment, work, and struggle involved to try to become elite. Elite runners enjoyed the interpersonal camaraderie and rivalries we all experience on a team and in races.

Paul - In Chapter 16, War Paint, you talk about Alberto Salazar – mostly favorably – but you take him to task a bit for his comment “It certainly wasn’t due to physical talent . . .” A lot of runners will agree with you that talent is inbred. You were a worker, and also talk about his other point, that running well is incredibly hard work, long before you hit the track. How frustrated did you, or do you, get when you see people with true talent that won’t do the work? Has that attitude changed over the years? 

 Tim Tays - When I strove for distance god status I saw many people more talented than me who wasted it by getting distracted or lazy. I liked it. It meant I had a chance to outwork them and maybe beat them. After my running career ended and I became a high school coach, I continued to see very talented runners, some of whom wasted their gift. All I could do was pull them aside and inform them about the consequences of their action (or inaction). Some boys did what I recommended and their times dropped. Other boys did not make the commitment and their performances reflected that. But being in my 30's by then, I knew the life lessons they learned were more important than how fast they ran in high school.

Paul - I joke that writing and publishing a book is like parading down Main Street naked, that the best authors strip themselves bare emotionally. In Wannabe Distance God, you’ve done exactly that. How painful was that and what part was the hardest to open up about?

Tim Tays - It was not a painful process for me at all, despite my "nakedness." It was joyous. I loved revisiting my years on the track and roads. I mean, sure, I felt loss and grief remembering my limits, failures, mistakes, and losses, but emotional trauma is treated by going through it again. On the other side of the telling it feels just a bit better.

Tim Tays (Left Kansas racer) and Paul Schultz (right)

Also, keep in mind that I got to relive the wonderfulness of the whole running scene. To have people enjoy and empathize with my journey is very validating, something most people don't get to have because they don't write memoir. Some of the hardest things to tell about were my youthful mistakes (e.g., pissing in an elevator, abusing alcohol, holding grudges, overly competitive, etc.). But I decided that the only original story I had to offer was my unique story, to include the victories and defeats, the awesomeness and the stupidity. If I was less than authentic readers would see right through it and set it down.

An advantage I had as a clinical psychologist was I knew it was our vulnerability that endears us, that bonds us, that builds trust. So I took a risk to tell the truth so that my readers would trust me. Only one person—out of the hundreds who have read my story thus far—has attacked me for telling my truth. I like those odds enough to write another book.

(Virtual interruption from Paul – Please do!)

Paul - The stories today about performance enhancing drugs are nearly non-stop. During your most competitive years, did you ever have to worry about your competitors having an unfair advantage?

Tim Tays - I worried about it, sure. Back in the 1970's and '80's we worried that blood doping would put us at a disadvantage, but I never knew anybody that did it. In fact, my impression of distance runners was scrupulous honesty around everything regarding training and racing. Maybe I was naive or just lucky, but I never knew any cheaters. Me? I always took pride in my integrity as a distance runner, and I perhaps projected that onto my teammates and competition. Didn't we all love distance running and would never do anything to hurt our sport or spoil our effort? Today when I hear about runners (usually sprinters) using PEDs my blood boils. How dare they?!

Paul - You explain at length about your early OCD behavior. I found it interesting that you use the experience to assist in helping others in your practice. Normally, when the general public considers true OCD behavior patterns, it is with a very strong negative connotation. What other areas have you noticed that it helps in, where it might serve a positive purpose?

Tim Tays - Everyone has anxiety because that's what's normal for humans. However, when we have too much anxiety it may take the form of an anxiety disorder such as OCD. In my case I channeled my compulsiveness (holding my breath, stretching my mouth, etc.) into something more socially acceptable and productive (i.e., distance running). Lots of people do that. Maybe it manifests as straight A's in graduate school, or a super clean house.

The problem is the person is not in control, the OCD is. In my case it led to lots of mileage, but with occasions of over training and injury. A better approach would've been to train smarter, not just more and harder.

I no longer suffer from OCD, but I still need to be vigilant. One of the best things about my past struggle with OCD was not only getting more high-mileage weeks in, but today in my practice I understand on a gut level what my clients are going through—how crazy it is but you still need to do it—and I know there's a way through it. 

Paul - You took a year off from Kansas after the tragedy of losing your mother. You worked at a metals supplier and ran in the mountains. Do you think that the year off from structured competition helped you gain perspective on the relationship you had with her? With running?

Tim Tays - This was a very difficult question for me to answer. In fact, I skipped it and left it for last. I had to think about it. Hmm.... Thirty-four years has given me perspective, but you ask about a single year, 1980, the year of her death, when I was twenty. I was devastated. I was liberated. I adored my mother. I left home at seventeen to escape her. She gave me God and my world view...and then she took it away when she became a martyr. So no, I guess in the year she died I gained zero perspective, I just ran my ass off as usual. In the decades after, yeah, I've had to decide what my personal world view is, how it is different from hers, how disappointed she would be that I am not a Christian Scientist, and how proud she would be of how I've found my own healthy path in life. 

Paul - Tim Gundy, a friend of mine, a heck of a runner, and an even nicer person, was a teammate of yours at Kansas during your senior year when you held the captaincy and considers you one of his running idols, someone for whom he has tremendous respect for. He wasn’t aware of the issues you bring out in your book. How important was it to you to keep the focus on the team and not on yourself? Was that part of your recovery process, even if you didn’t realize it?  

Tim Tays - I didn't realize I hid myself. I just wanted to kick ass. Cross country and track were such individualized sports that, as a young man, I generally lost sight of what the team did. I wanted to do well, and if the team also did well that was great, but the absolute minimum was me whupping bags of Big 8 butt. My attitude was the better I ran the better it was for the team, so I focused on myself.

Tim Tays, racing indoors at Kansas, date unknown.

That said, I was too self-centered and could've been a much better captain than I was. I didn't receive much guidance as a kid, and so I assumed others didn't expect it from me. I led by example. I showed up, tried to lead the workout, and went to the library to study. It was simple in college, right?

In retrospect I should've reached out to the younger runners, encouraged them. But I feared other runners would beat me and prevent my success. I was afraid that I wouldn't be somebody. I wish I had been more mature, but I've mostly forgiven myself for my immaturity as a late-adolescent. Also, realistically, in a hyper-macho environment like DI athletics I shared very few of my vulnerabilities.

Certainly today, I'd let in someone safe like Tim Gundy, but at the time, I felt intimidated and competitive. Gundy would end up a sub-4 miler, which could easily have bumped me from the mile lineup or off a relay. I'd enjoy my teammates and the experience more if I could do it over again. As a coach I encouraged my runners to enjoy each other and the short shelf-life of high school and collegiate distance running careers. 

Paul - After the tale of the All Military Track and Field Championships and your injury, you flash forward to the 49 year-old version of you. The intervening years you didn’t run. When you started to run again, was the running this time more precious because you hadn’t been run for so long?

Tim Tays - Oh, yes, I savored it. I thought I would never run again. But as I rounded into shape, "Timmy Two-Mile" returned, just as immature and driven as before. I so enjoyed racing again and returning to the Boston Marathon. I learned that putting me back in a similar situation I responded as I had 25 years before because that part of me hadn't grown. That part of me still wanted to kick ass and take names, to be a distance god. So I reevaluated my expectations and learned to enjoy being a distance runner even if I'd never be a distance god.

Paul - You’re a wannabe distance god. Which distance god did you wannabe? (For me, it’s Emil Zatopek, btw)

Tim Tays - That's such an easy question for me: Jim Ryun. I guess he's technically a middle-distance god, but he was a distance runner to me because I became aware of him in junior high and high school, when running the mile was considered a long way to run. I went to Kansas University to be like Ryun and train under Coach Bob Timmons. It was a dream come true for me at seventeen years old. Thirty-five years later I sent a promotional copy of my book to Ryun, which he read but told me he could not endorse it and hoped I would understand. I'm sure he had good reasons, but still I was crushed.

So even well into my fifties I'm still getting reality checks. It's probably good for me. It's probably building my character in some way I don't even know that I need. Anyway, nowadays my answer is still Jim Ryun, but I need to add Billy Mills, whose graciousness blows me away, and Bill Rodgers, the most ego-less celebrity I've ever met (online). They are incredible ambassadors for distance running. 

Paul - Last question: You have a metaphysical hotline to young Timmie Two-Mile and a lifetime of perspective to share with him. What could you say to him that he might listen to? Would you?

Tim Tays - Listen up, Timmy Two-Mile, you don't need to run to be a good person. That said, if you choose to run, then run smart. Keep the drive and the passion, but rest when you should, eat a healthy diet, find a running club for support (the lone wolf thing is too hard), invest in friendly relationships, draft more instead of impulsively moving to the front, and enjoy the ride.

Would Timmy Two-Mile listen to me? He would probably listen respectfully, nodding and smiling, and then surge to the front of a hot race, try to burn and bury runners way better than him, get into oxygen debt, fade, finish in the chase pack, get pissed off, up his weekly mileage, and then do it all over again next week in another city.

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My thanks to Tim Tays for the opportunity to interview him. The book cover image at the top will take you to Amazon to purchase the book - though I expect you can find it elsewhere, too. My thanks to Tim Gundy for pointing out the book to me - as runners turned writers, we don't have big publisher marketing budgets. A lot happens by word of mouth, so when you're done with Wannabe Distance God, I'm sure that Tim Tays would appreciate you passing on the word.

Thanks everybody. Run gently out there.

Paul Duffau

Paul is the author of two fictional tales of runners: Finishing Kick (recognized by Running Times in their Summer Reading list July, 2014); and his newest novel, Trail of Second Chances. He blogs on the running life and interviews people that he finds interesting.